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Author =?ISO-8859-1?Q?David_Z=FClke?= <dz@bitxtender.com>
Full name =?ISO-8859-1?Q?David_Z=FClke?= <dz@bitxtender.com>
Date 2007-02-18 07:50:20 PST
Message I'm fine with people charging money for a Propel download. Well I'm
not fine with that, since it would mean some people would get ripped
off, but the license allows it. I was just saying that I don't want
to see people using the Propel name and the Propel logo for such a
product. PHP, Apache, Python, Smarty etc don't allow that either. See
http://httpd.apache.​org/docs/2.2/faq/bac​kground.html#backgro​und.logo
for instance (last section).


David



Am 18.02.2007 um 15:55 schrieb Hans Lellelid:

> Let me interject a few things before this spirals out of control :)
>
> First off, I think I can identify with David's sentiments here; while
> Propel is open-source, I think that we'd all feel a bit insulted/
> scammed
> if anyone was charging people to download Propel in its open-source
> branded form. That said, I don't any of us would be all that upset if
> people were putting Propel on a CD, printing out a manual, and selling
> the whole thing -- or, more likely, putting Propel on a CD with a
> bunch
> of other open-source software and selling the whole thing with a
> magazine).
>
> On the other hand, I believe in open-source software and believe it
> should be free -- and of course part of that freedom is in allowing
> people to do what they wish with it, even if that be something that
> might make me feel a little "scammed" like charging for a
> download. Of
> course, I do personally believe in some obligation in open-source; I
> like the LGPL because it gives leverage to the developers who want to
> submit back improvements (I really believe everyone wants to
> contribute
> code, and I feel like the LGPL gives people a justification in asking
> people who pay their paycheck to honor that & allow them to submit
> back
> code modifications/improvements).
>
> I don't see your point about the GPL not allowing people to sell
> software for money. I agree that it may not make much sense, since my
> understanding is that it can be distributed for free by the receiving
> party, but I believe the ability to sell is built-in to the GPL:
> http://www.gnu.org/l​icenses/gpl-faq.html​#DoesTheGPLAllowMone​y
>
> So, ultimately, I agree that we don't need to discourage people from
> making money by selling, in some for or other, the Propel product. In
> fact, selling Propel would be a good thing for the project. I do
> think
> it's good to think about copyright issues when people contribute
> work -
> like logos, etc. - but this is not something that is contributing to
> keeping me awake at night :)
>
> I don't ever want to get into some sort of copyright battle over
> Propel
> logo, name, etc. We've certainly have lots of documented use of the
> name for years, but it is not a registered trademark (indeed, there
> are
> several other "Propel" commercial products that might not take
> kindly to
> that).
>
> Hans
>
> Pedram Nimreezi wrote:
>>> This might actually be a good idea
>>> since a smarty policy or a carefully chosen CC license could prevent
>>> people from "selling" Propel for money,
>>
>> I have major issues with that comment, first it aggravates me that
>> you
>> don't
>> understand that open source enables products to be made that are
>> community
>> oriented and not software that cannot be sold...
>>
>> Products are meant to be sold and/or supported. A GPL project is
>> designed to counter the ability of companies to sell the GPL code
>> since competition
>> is effectively diffused when none of them can profit. LGPL code is
>> different by nature
>> in that it can be sold, it has little restriction except on
>> attribution to the authors.
>> GPL requires this and also requires the code to remain free ,
>> furthermore
>> it virally infects other portions of code making it all or mostly
>> GPL as
>> well.
>>
>> Therefore as licenses go GPL is not as free as LGPL which is not
>> as free
>> as BSD.
>>
>> NonCommercial licenses aren't even friggin open source, so I don't
>> know
>> where it
>> even comes into your mind as a solution, besides if thats the
>> solution, well then
>> whats the problem? You don't want people to use Propel for their
>> products?
>>
>> That's funny... you use mojavi for your agavi framework don't you?
>> You mean to tell me you never sold a copy of your software?
>> (NOT THE INSTALL, THE ACTUAL SOFTWARE)
>>
>> If it were GPL, you could only charge for Install and Support not the
>> actual software too.
>>
>> Firstly, you nor anyone else can authorize the decision to make
>> Propel,
>> GPL,
>> even if you make every version from now on GPL there will still be
>> LGPL versions,
>> secondly, I believe you have confused the GPL with the LGPL, the LGPL
>> can be
>> sold for money- 1 line of code and an include would make it a
>> PRODUCT...
>> The LGPL is not as strict as the GPL, that is why the LGPL and BSD
>> License
>> is called "Actually Free" whereas the GPL is called "Virulent",
>> lastly
>> there is
>> a BSD Licensed version of Propel as well which I am responsible for,
>> that also
>> can be SOLD... Example OSX remasters Darwin BSD, no where will you
>> find a
>> BSD Daemon Logo on the Apple website however.
>>
>> Propel's logo doesn't HAVE to be on my site, but I may want to spread
>> its acceptance
>> and to that effect I and hopefully many others will as well...
>>
>> My opinion is that the copyright holder of the image should give
>> the propel project
>> authority to put the logo on its site for redistribution where it can
>> be linked to the
>> propel site just like the propel project gave me authority to
>> maintain
>> the PHP4
>> version of propel because I asked for it and followed procedure & no
>> ones worked on it in
>> years.
>> I also believe there should be more versions of the propel logo,
>> different back
>> colors, or GIF/PNG and try to expand on that instead of thinking of
>> relicensing it or
>> any part of propel as NonCommercial which goes against the very
>> concept
>> of its
>> current license(s). A CreativeCommons on documentation ONLY would be
>> acceptable,
>> but keep in mind that people taking the documentation to put on their
>> site which links
>> to propel will only increase the visibility of these sites.
>>
>> peace...
>> ~~~~~~~
>> ...pedram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/07, David Zülke <dz at bitxtender dot com> wrote:
>>> No, it's fine like this. As you pointed out, he's the copyright
>>> owner, so the work is still protected (actually, it probably isn't,
>>> since it's very likely that it, like many compositions of existing
>>> works, lacks the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>> Threshold_of_originality). He created it for the specific purpose of
>>> putting it up free for everyone on the website. Of course, Rob _can_
>>> declare a license or any limitations regarding usage, like http://
>>> smarty.php.net/copyright.php. This might actually be a good idea
>>> since a smarty policy or a carefully chosen CC license could prevent
>>> people from "selling" Propel for money, with the official logo, for
>>> instance. I believe a CC-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license would be
>>> possible because putting the logo on a website or into a product for
>>> the purpose of linking to the Propel site or declaring that the
>>> software is powered by Propel is not a commercial purpose in the
>>> same
>>> sense as, say, using CC-NonCommercial-licensed icons in the UI of
>>> the
>>> application (and that is what the "non-commercial" in such a CC
>>> license is about), but my guess is that a laywer would have to
>>> decide
>>> that, any we'll be just fine without a license ;)
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 17.02.2007 um 03:01 schrieb Hans Lellelid:
>>>
>>>> On second thought I don't think we need any sort of licensed
>>>> release. Rob is copyright owner for the images; that seems fine by
>>>> me. David may have some input on this issue, though, since I know
>>>> he's been thinking about some of these issues w/ Agavi, Symfony,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Hans
>>>>
>>>> Hans Lellelid wrote:
>>>>> I have no idea... David?
>>>>> Cameron Brunner wrote:
>>>>>> mwahahaha, me likey! :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hans: do we need an email from rob saying that he releases these
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> a blah license for us?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/17/07, Robert Bruce <rob@thirddimensi​ondesign.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Will this do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hans Lellelid wrote:
>>>>>>> Yeah -- I wasn't thinking we'd change the main site logo. Just
>>>>>>> have the
>>>>>>> "powered" button; sorry, I guess my note wasn't clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... I wish I still had the vector artwork ... I didn't design
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> original logo & well ... it's a long story :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Zülke wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yay, having ze Propel logo in vector format would be ace. Let's
>>>>>>> just not
>>>>>>> change it, however. It's genuis. Only "problem" _might_ be the
>>>>>>> lowercase
>>>>>>> first p, should we decide to have some kind of "CI" in the long
>>>>>>> term.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 16.02.2007 um 16:03 schrieb Hans Lellelid:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that's a great idea. I can create a page for that on the
>>>>>>> wiki.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd also be very willing to have anyone with some graphics
>>>>>>> experience /
>>>>>>> time on their hands to create a logo! (You'll get credit &
>>>>>>> tons of
>>>>>>> appreciation, of course!) :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Bruce wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our company uses propel, we wouldn't object at all. Our product
>>>>>>> hasn't
>>>>>>> been released yet, but it due to be soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've done some interesting stuff with using propel to obtain
>>>>>>> Smarty
>>>>>>> templates from the database, with some extra magic too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, February 16, 2007 1:47 pm, Cameron Brunner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was just curious if anyone objected to a page in trac
>>>>>>> dedicated to
>>>>>>> sites/projects that are powered by propel (purely propel?
>>>>>>> symfony as
>>>>>>> well?) and/or companies that use propel? Perhaps even some
>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>> reports from users on why they use it blahblah?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also has anyone got a nice little powered by propel logo?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cameron Brunner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Want a better web browser?
>>>>>>> http://www.spreadfir​efox.com/?q=affiliat​es&id=182780​&t=1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​----
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​------
>>>>> ---
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>
>>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
>>>> --
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​--------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>
>