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Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel?

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Author Pedram Nimreezi <zenstyle at gmail dot com>
Full name Pedram Nimreezi <zenstyle at gmail dot com>
Date 2007-02-18 07:34:01 PST
Message Hello Hans... to clarify, when I was referring to the GPL as not being
code that
is sellable... I meant in the sense of Question 3, which states

Q: Does the GPL allow me to require that anyone who receives the
software must pay me a fee and/or notify me?
A: No

Furthermore, if your project is based on 1 line of GPL code, you still
cannot sell it.

I didn't mean you can't put it on a CD and sell it, quite literally
Ebay does that daily.

therefore you could say that the GPL is free for users while it is NOT free for
software product developers, unless of course their products are free, in which
case it doesn't really matter.

the LGPL is nice because it requires attribution unless waived,
however derived works
can be sold, (the code can).

the BSD license is the nicest, just look at Mac OSX, no one knows it's
BSD unless
they are adept enough and able to tell... adept as in (can type uname -a) which
99% of mac users can't... So they go wow, mac has no viruses, it doesn't crash
Mac is great... in reality BSD is great... The daemon, not the apple,
if they had to
attribute then fanfare might sound something more like, I'm glad Mac
switched to BSD.

In my case I am developing a product which i fully intend to sell,
starting with an
open source framework and then software built on that, software that
is professional.

If someone is selling propel downloads then they are in the wrong, but
that's not what
I was referring to at all.

I was referring to any root software licensing affecting software
branched from it, and
that people's decision to branch software from it is usually
determined from the specific
license it's under. In the sense of a GPL or NonCommercial license I
fully believe
it will do nothing but drive users and prospective developers away...
and not you know
stop "asshats" from selling propel or any LGPL software outright...

finally, there are a lot of things you can do to make developers like
us feel scammed,
such as forking their framework without so much as a link back...



peace...
~~~~~~~
...pedram


On 2/18/07, Hans Lellelid <hans at velum dot net> wrote:
> Let me interject a few things before this spirals out of control :)
>
> First off, I think I can identify with David's sentiments here; while
> Propel is open-source, I think that we'd all feel a bit insulted/scammed
> if anyone was charging people to download Propel in its open-source
> branded form. That said, I don't any of us would be all that upset if
> people were putting Propel on a CD, printing out a manual, and selling
> the whole thing -- or, more likely, putting Propel on a CD with a bunch
> of other open-source software and selling the whole thing with a magazine).
>
> On the other hand, I believe in open-source software and believe it
> should be free -- and of course part of that freedom is in allowing
> people to do what they wish with it, even if that be something that
> might make me feel a little "scammed" like charging for a download. Of
> course, I do personally believe in some obligation in open-source; I
> like the LGPL because it gives leverage to the developers who want to
> submit back improvements (I really believe everyone wants to contribute
> code, and I feel like the LGPL gives people a justification in asking
> people who pay their paycheck to honor that & allow them to submit back
> code modifications/improvements).
>
> I don't see your point about the GPL not allowing people to sell
> software for money. I agree that it may not make much sense, since my
> understanding is that it can be distributed for free by the receiving
> party, but I believe the ability to sell is built-in to the GPL:
> http://www.gnu.org/l​icenses/gpl-faq.html​#DoesTheGPLAllowMone​y
>
> So, ultimately, I agree that we don't need to discourage people from
> making money by selling, in some for or other, the Propel product. In
> fact, selling Propel would be a good thing for the project. I do think
> it's good to think about copyright issues when people contribute work -
> like logos, etc. - but this is not something that is contributing to
> keeping me awake at night :)
>
> I don't ever want to get into some sort of copyright battle over Propel
> logo, name, etc. We've certainly have lots of documented use of the
> name for years, but it is not a registered trademark (indeed, there are
> several other "Propel" commercial products that might not take kindly to
> that).
>
> Hans
>
> Pedram Nimreezi wrote:
> >> This might actually be a good idea
> >> since a smarty policy or a carefully chosen CC license could prevent
> >> people from "selling" Propel for money,
> >
> > I have major issues with that comment, first it aggravates me that you
> > don't
> > understand that open source enables products to be made that are community
> > oriented and not software that cannot be sold...
> >
> > Products are meant to be sold and/or supported. A GPL project is
> > designed to counter the ability of companies to sell the GPL code
> > since competition
> > is effectively diffused when none of them can profit. LGPL code is
> > different by nature
> > in that it can be sold, it has little restriction except on
> > attribution to the authors.
> > GPL requires this and also requires the code to remain free , furthermore
> > it virally infects other portions of code making it all or mostly GPL as
> > well.
> >
> > Therefore as licenses go GPL is not as free as LGPL which is not as free
> > as BSD.
> >
> > NonCommercial licenses aren't even friggin open source, so I don't know
> > where it
> > even comes into your mind as a solution, besides if thats the
> > solution, well then
> > whats the problem? You don't want people to use Propel for their products?
> >
> > That's funny... you use mojavi for your agavi framework don't you?
> > You mean to tell me you never sold a copy of your software?
> > (NOT THE INSTALL, THE ACTUAL SOFTWARE)
> >
> > If it were GPL, you could only charge for Install and Support not the
> > actual software too.
> >
> > Firstly, you nor anyone else can authorize the decision to make Propel,
> > GPL,
> > even if you make every version from now on GPL there will still be
> > LGPL versions,
> > secondly, I believe you have confused the GPL with the LGPL, the LGPL
> > can be
> > sold for money- 1 line of code and an include would make it a PRODUCT...
> > The LGPL is not as strict as the GPL, that is why the LGPL and BSD License
> > is called "Actually Free" whereas the GPL is called "Virulent", lastly
> > there is
> > a BSD Licensed version of Propel as well which I am responsible for,
> > that also
> > can be SOLD... Example OSX remasters Darwin BSD, no where will you find a
> > BSD Daemon Logo on the Apple website however.
> >
> > Propel's logo doesn't HAVE to be on my site, but I may want to spread
> > its acceptance
> > and to that effect I and hopefully many others will as well...
> >
> > My opinion is that the copyright holder of the image should give
> > the propel project
> > authority to put the logo on its site for redistribution where it can
> > be linked to the
> > propel site just like the propel project gave me authority to maintain
> > the PHP4
> > version of propel because I asked for it and followed procedure & no
> > ones worked on it in
> > years.
> > I also believe there should be more versions of the propel logo,
> > different back
> > colors, or GIF/PNG and try to expand on that instead of thinking of
> > relicensing it or
> > any part of propel as NonCommercial which goes against the very concept
> > of its
> > current license(s). A CreativeCommons on documentation ONLY would be
> > acceptable,
> > but keep in mind that people taking the documentation to put on their
> > site which links
> > to propel will only increase the visibility of these sites.
> >
> > peace...
> > ~~~~~~~
> > ...pedram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/17/07, David Zülke <dz at bitxtender dot com> wrote:
> >> No, it's fine like this. As you pointed out, he's the copyright
> >> owner, so the work is still protected (actually, it probably isn't,
> >> since it's very likely that it, like many compositions of existing
> >> works, lacks the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> >> Threshold_of_originality). He created it for the specific purpose of
> >> putting it up free for everyone on the website. Of course, Rob _can_
> >> declare a license or any limitations regarding usage, like http://
> >> smarty.php.net/copyright.php. This might actually be a good idea
> >> since a smarty policy or a carefully chosen CC license could prevent
> >> people from "selling" Propel for money, with the official logo, for
> >> instance. I believe a CC-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license would be
> >> possible because putting the logo on a website or into a product for
> >> the purpose of linking to the Propel site or declaring that the
> >> software is powered by Propel is not a commercial purpose in the same
> >> sense as, say, using CC-NonCommercial-licensed icons in the UI of the
> >> application (and that is what the "non-commercial" in such a CC
> >> license is about), but my guess is that a laywer would have to decide
> >> that, any we'll be just fine without a license ;)
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 17.02.2007 um 03:01 schrieb Hans Lellelid:
> >>
> >> > On second thought I don't think we need any sort of licensed
> >> > release. Rob is copyright owner for the images; that seems fine by
> >> > me. David may have some input on this issue, though, since I know
> >> > he's been thinking about some of these issues w/ Agavi, Symfony, etc.
> >> >
> >> > Hans
> >> >
> >> > Hans Lellelid wrote:
> >> >> I have no idea... David?
> >> >> Cameron Brunner wrote:
> >> >>> mwahahaha, me likey! :)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> hans: do we need an email from rob saying that he releases these
> >> >>> under
> >> >>> a blah license for us?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 2/17/07, Robert Bruce <rob@thirddimensi​ondesign.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Will this do?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hans Lellelid wrote:
> >> >>>> Yeah -- I wasn't thinking we'd change the main site logo. Just
> >> >>>> have the
> >> >>>> "powered" button; sorry, I guess my note wasn't clear.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ... I wish I still had the vector artwork ... I didn't design the
> >> >>>> original logo & well ... it's a long story :)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hans
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> David Zülke wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Yay, having ze Propel logo in vector format would be ace. Let's
> >> >>>> just not
> >> >>>> change it, however. It's genuis. Only "problem" _might_ be the
> >> >>>> lowercase
> >> >>>> first p, should we decide to have some kind of "CI" in the long
> >> >>>> term.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> David
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Am 16.02.2007 um 16:03 schrieb Hans Lellelid:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I think that's a great idea. I can create a page for that on the
> >> >>>> wiki.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'd also be very willing to have anyone with some graphics
> >> >>>> experience /
> >> >>>> time on their hands to create a logo! (You'll get credit & tons of
> >> >>>> appreciation, of course!) :)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hans
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Robert Bruce wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Our company uses propel, we wouldn't object at all. Our product
> >> >>>> hasn't
> >> >>>> been released yet, but it due to be soon.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> We've done some interesting stuff with using propel to obtain
> >> >>>> Smarty
> >> >>>> templates from the database, with some extra magic too.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Fri, February 16, 2007 1:47 pm, Cameron Brunner wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Was just curious if anyone objected to a page in trac dedicated to
> >> >>>> sites/projects that are powered by propel (purely propel?
> >> >>>> symfony as
> >> >>>> well?) and/or companies that use propel? Perhaps even some general
> >> >>>> reports from users on why they use it blahblah?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Also has anyone got a nice little powered by propel logo?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> Cameron Brunner
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Want a better web browser?
> >> >>>> http://www.spreadfir​efox.com/?q=affiliat​es&id=182780​&t=1
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​-------
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​---------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >
> >> > --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​---------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​---------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --------------------​--------------------​--------------------​---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@prop​el.tigris.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help at propel dot tigris dot org
>
>

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Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 05:47:19 PST
     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> 2007-02-16 06:53:40 PST
         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:03:42 PST
             Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> 2007-02-16 08:03:56 PST
                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 07:05:19 PST
                     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> 2007-02-16 08:09:30 PST
                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 07:11:14 PST
                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:14:41 PST
                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:15:28 PST
             Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 07:06:55 PST
                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:13:31 PST
                     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 07:14:19 PST
                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:20:43 PST
                             Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 07:31:14 PST
                                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:36:55 PST
                                     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> Robert Bruce <rob at tdd dot org dot uk> 2007-02-16 08:47:38 PST
                                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 07:55:58 PST
             Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? =?ISO-8859-1?Q?David_Z=FClke?= <dz at bitxtender dot com> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?David_Z=FClke?= <dz at bitxtender dot com> 2007-02-16 14:36:45 PST
                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 14:41:00 PST
                     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Robert Bruce <rob at thirddimensiondesign dot co dot uk> Robert Bruce <rob at thirddimensiondesign dot co dot uk> 2007-02-16 15:26:45 PST
                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 16:22:22 PST
                         Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 17:18:24 PST
                             Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 17:57:01 PST
                                 Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2007-02-16 18:01:04 PST
                                     Re: [propel-dev] Powered by propel? Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> Cameron Brunner <cameron dot brunner at gmail dot com> 2007-02-16 18:39:56 PST
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