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Re: [propel] Fw: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3

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Author hlellelid
Full name Hans Lellelid
Date 2008-10-14 13:38:15 PDT
Message Yeah, a language is just a language. But I will say that when things like
inconsistent error handling bite enough times, you do start wondering if
all languages are really created equal.

I don't think a language should be driven by democracy; I think that has
fared very badly for PHP. Things keep getting tacked on without any real
fixes to the underlying architecture; result is a product that has lots &
lots of "seams" revealing fundamental disconnects between the paradigms
that are being used to develop the code and the underlying structures.
This contrast between PHP userland (where we get exceptions, file streams,
objects) and the engine core seems like it's paralleled by the difference
between the user community and the internals developers. The developers
added these features that users clamor for and vote on, but they clearly
either don't understand the features in the first place (or how they will
impact other parts of the language) or never really intend to use the
features themselves. If the measure of this success is simply how many
servers are running PHP, I'm sure this strategy is working fine. If the
measure is how many PHP open-source projects are thinking about software
architecture, innovative web-based server paradigms, and enterprise-scale
design, then I don't think it's been so successful.

On more of a rant/stream-of-thought note, I wonder if PHP is ready for the
next generation of web applications. It worked great for creating HTML
templates, but are people building new applications today really using PHP
to generate HTML? Maybe they are, but everything seems to be moving to a
model where the backend is just a services layer. PHP doesn't offer any
advantages over other languages when it comes to a simple web services
layer; heck, Java even starts to look easy if all I'm doing is writing a
JSON-RPC server that talks to a database. The multiple-page model for
serving requests no longer makes sense; instead you have some sort of front
controller -- so now you're using a framework. And all of these languages
have frameworks, but languages like Java and Python not only have web
frameworks but have framework API standards. They've been thinking about
this for a lot longer, and it shows. So I think that PHP as a solution
needs to evolve at the engine level (with things like namespaces + built-in
phar, etc.) AND it needs to evolve at the community level (with new
standards and framework specifications). I'm not sure either type of
evolution is really compatible with PHP's democracy-driven development
model.

Ok, that's my rant for the day :)

Hans

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT), Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs dot com>
wrote:
> My "Why I hate Python" list is just as long as "Why I hate PHP" list.
Not
> that I really hate either but you get my point.
>
> To be clear it's not a leadership problem as far as I'm concerned.
> There's no good way to make hard decisions. Democracy is all good until
> it's 50-50 and then somebody needs to step in.
>
> --Tony
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Hans Lellelid <hans at velum dot net>
> To: users at propel dot tigris dot org
> Cc: propel-dev <dev at propel dot tigris dot org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 12:53:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [propel] Fw: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3
>
> Yeah, this is pretty disheartening. My impression is that PHP suffers
> from
> a complete lack of leadership.
>
> As for Python - come on in; the water is great :) Professionally, I've
> been doing an increasing amount of work in Python (it's fair to say that
> we're essentially dropping PHP at this point and moving future
> applications
> to Python frameworks). Python is awesome, but the downside is that not
> working with PHP on a daily basis leaves less time (and presents a bigger
> paradigm shift) for Propel & Phing development :-/
>
> Hans
>
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:08:40 -0700, "Taylor Dondich" <tdondich at gmail dot com>
> wrote:
>> If they rip out that needed feature, I'm going to scream and go to
> python.
>>
>> The problem of name collision is more and more visible as stronger php
>> frameworks come out. They all have horrible ways of trying to cope
>> with this and none of it is elegant. Only a true namespace
>> implementation would help resolve this issue.
>>
>> Now, from the other side, I understand concern when they attempt to
>> use existing operators to pull double duty. Using context as a way to
>> use operators always seems pretty shady. So I understand their
>> concern to get things "just right" with the right amount of
>> performance. But the internals team needs to understand how much of a
>> demand there is for this feature.
>>
>> Taylor
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs dot com> wrote:
>>> If anybody else has an opinion this would be a good time to chime in.
>>>
>>> --Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>>> From: Tony Bibbs <tony at tonybibbs dot com>
>>> To: internals at lists dot php dot net
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:03:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3
>>>
>>> This is what I've be fearing. First slated for 5.0. Then 5.3. Now
>> 6.0. It appears there's consensus to rip it out which, in my prior
> post,
> I
>> was all for if people felt it meant getting it right. Apparently that
> is
>> the case. I guess my main question is what keeps this from being pushed
>> yet again once 6.0 drops? From the community standpoint we keep hearing
>> "its coming, its coming" but here we are still waiting. Again, I'm fine
>> with the decision but I think others share similar concerns and will
> want
>> to hear a commitment (dare I say promise) to adding namespaces to 6.0.
>>>
>>> --Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Stefan Walk <et at php dot net>
>>> To: internals at lists dot php dot net
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:46:58 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3
>>>
>>> On Tuesday 14 October 2008 14:10:50 Steph Fox wrote:
>>>> I'm +1 on ripping out and leaving til 6.0. I don't think there is
>> enough
>>>> time between now and the 5.3.0 code freeze to make major changes to
> the
>>>> language syntax.
>>>
>>> Major changes like ripping the feature that most people are looking
>> forward to
>>> in 5.3 out?
>>>
>>>> Making -> do double duty and adding E_STRICT messages to
>>>> currently legal code really doesn't look like a good option to me,
> much
>>>> less during a point release and even less during the final moments of
> a
>>>> release cycle.
>>>
>>> That E_STRICT was proposed for 6, not for 5.3, and is not a requirement
>> - and
>>> about "double duty", it's not really unintuitive to reference to
>> "members" of
>>> classes the same way you reference to "members" of instances.
>>>
>>>> 'An announcement has been done on php.net' simply isn't a good enough
>>>> reason to screw up the language; we can write new announcements and
>> even
>>>> explanations. And we already have *most* of a working implementation
> in
>>>> 6.0, so it's not like ripping it out of 5.3 means starting over from
>>>> scratch.
>>>
>>> I would love to see the public reaction to those "new announcements and
>>> explanations", so in a way it's a win-win situation for me.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>> --
>>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>>
>>> --
>>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Taylor Dondich
>> Check out Lilac, a configuration tool for Nagios 3 at
>> http://www.lilacplatform.com
>>
>> Check out my Shortcut with O'Reilly Press:
>> Network Monitoring with Nagios:
>> http://oreilly.com/c​atalog/9780596528195​/index.html
>>
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>
>
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Re: [propel] Fw: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3 hlellelid Hans Lellelid 2008-10-14 13:38:15 PDT
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